Beeson Podcast, Episode #590 Dr. Michael Knowles March 1, 2022 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of 海角直播. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I鈥檓 your host, Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. We are glad to welcome you back into our studio. Spring is just around the corner and our halls here are buzzing with fellowship and learning. If you鈥檙e never been to our campus you really ought to visit. We would love to show you around. In the meantime we鈥檇 love for you to visit us online. You can join us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and on our website for all kinds of live events and recordings. Check us out at www.BeesonDivinity.com. Today鈥檚 guest is on campus giving our William E. Conger Junior Lectures in Biblical Preaching. So, who is this person, Kristen? And what are we going to talk about today? >>Kristen Padilla: Hi Doug. Hello, Podcast Listeners. We have the Reverend Dr. Michael Knowles with us in the studio, I鈥檓 glad to say. He is Professor of Preaching in the Hurlburt Chair of Preaching at McMaster Divinity College in Canada. He is ordained in the Anglican Church of Canada and is the author of seven books. So, welcome, Dr. Knowles to the Beeson Podcast. >>Dr. Knowles: Thank you so much, it鈥檚 so lovely to be with you, and thank you for your consistently warm hospitality during my visit. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, it鈥檚 been such a joy to get to meet you and to have fellowship with you over a meal last night. I鈥檓 excited to introduce you to our podcast listeners. I wonder if you can tell us more about who you are? Your background and your journey to faith in Jesus Christ? >>Dr. Knowles: So, I鈥檓 the child of English immigrants, post war immigrants. Born in Calgary, Alberta. Grew up, went to 海角直播 in Victoria B.C. While I was there I was in the English Department at U Vic. I was doing my undergraduate degree. There were a number of Christians in the department. I know they prayed mightily for this very lost young man. My conversion is actually quite an unusual one, because having built some bookcases to accommodate my 海角直播 books I dug out an old Gideon鈥檚 Bible that I had received in grade five 鈥 and reading the back about accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior ... I actually signed in the back of a Gideon鈥檚 New Testament and was profoundly converted, much to my surprise. So, my background is Anglican. I鈥檓 ordained in the Anglican Church of Canada. That鈥檚 simply my background. I鈥檝e never thought of going elsewhere in terms of my own affiliation but I have had lots of fellowship and experience with lots of folks across a wide range of denominational expressions and experiences. >>Doug Sweeney: I bet a few of our listeners know a little bit about the Anglican Church of Canada. But most of them don鈥檛 know much. Would you tell us a little bit about your denomination and how you became an ordained minister? >>Dr. Knowles: Oh, sure, that鈥檚 actually quite simple. It鈥檚 the Church of England. It鈥檚 like Episcopalian but the Canadian version. Historically aligned with the powers of state, which has been kind of interesting, even though now Canada is a very secular country. After I finished my English degree I did an honors degree and I studied John Bunyan, a Puritan proto Baptist. I very much felt the call to study theology. And during the first two years of my MDiv degree I spent literally hundreds of hours on my knees praying that the Lord would show me the way. One day he did. I had this quite remarkable experience in which he didn鈥檛 show me anything outside of myself. He showed me in fact that I had a pastor鈥檚 heart. And I was livid, because it turned out that all along I鈥檇 been resisting his call. He was actually calling me into ministry and I didn鈥檛 want ministry. I wanted to be an academic. So, we weren鈥檛 on speaking terms for a little while after that. But I eventually (laughs) came to my senses. So, I鈥檓 ordained in the Anglican Church simply because that鈥檚 where the Lord has called me. Not because of the excellence of or the qualities of a particular denomination, but because that鈥檚 where the Lord has chosen to have me work. I鈥檓 honored to do that. >>Kristen Padilla: You mentioned also your desire and call to be an academic. And you are one. You are a professor of preaching, as I鈥檝e already said, and you鈥檝e already told me this story, but I think it will interest our listeners 鈥 how you got into teaching, preaching, and teaching others about the discipline of preaching? >>Dr. Knowles: So, when I finished my doctoral degree I was first off given a position of assistant director of an institute of evangelism at our Anglican College. I know that for some folks Episcopalian or Anglican and evangelism tend to not occur in the same paragraph, let alone the same sentence, but we had an institute of evangelism. When in effect funding for that came to an end my doctoral supervisor, Richard Longnecker, was teaching at McMaster. And he wanted me to come and help him teach New Testament courses at McMaster. So, invited me out to dinner with the principal of the day. I discovered to my dismay that as I really thought about it I didn鈥檛 want to teach New Testament, though I鈥檝e published in New Testament, though it fascinates me in a way, it鈥檚 kind of like with a computer. I鈥檓 a computer user, not a computer programmer. Often, the way New Testament ... Well, sometimes the way New Testament is taught is it鈥檚 very technical, it鈥檚 like learning C++ for religion. Not my thing. So, after a long and very awkward dinner in which I managed not either to offend my hosts, nor to say 鈥測es鈥 to this proposal, Dr. Brackney, the principal of the day said, 鈥淲ell, what else do you do, Dr. Knowles?鈥 And I said, 鈥淲ell,鈥 very grateful for a change of topic, 鈥淚鈥檓 preaching Sunday evenings at an Anglican Church. I鈥檓 preaching through the Book of Acts.鈥 And he said, 鈥淲ell, then we may just have a position for you.鈥 So, this came as a complete surprise to me, but I found it to be a point of conversion and convergence. Conversion in the sense that it was a new call to me. Convergence in the sense that it brought together spirituality, scholarship, church leadership, ordination, service in pastoral ministry. And I thought, 鈥淥h, I think I could enjoy that. I might be able to do that.鈥 So, completely by accident, quite frankly, I鈥檓 still a bit surprised by it after 25 years. It鈥檚 the only, as far as I know, the only funded and named chair in preaching in Canada. I鈥檓 not quite sure why I have it, except by the grace of God. >>Doug Sweeney: You鈥檝e already mentioned that you鈥檙e on our campus this week, giving our Conger Lectures in Preaching, a storied annual lecture series here at Beeson. What are you telling the students this week? You鈥檝e given a lecture on preaching crucifixion, we鈥檙e looking forward to a lecture on preaching resurrection. What can our listeners know about what you鈥檙e sharing with the students? >>Dr. Knowles: In one sense, it鈥檚 quite simple. There is no word for discipleship in the New Testament. In place of Paul talking about an abstract principle of discipleship he says instead that Christian identity consists of being in Christ, in Christ Jesus, in Christ the Lord. There鈥檚 some variations, but 164 times he says that to be a follower of Jesus is to be mystically made one with him. Well, these lectures are really the exposition of that idea that to be joined to the life of Jesus means that we enter first into his death and then into his resurrection. And so we鈥檙e really talking about whether in the life of discipleship or the life of preaching, what does it mean to be governed in practical terms by always coming to a point of yieldedness. What the German Pietists would call 鈥淸foreign language 00:08:36],鈥 to give, to yield yourself up. What does it mean to come to a point of utter dependence upon the author of life so that he can give life to you as a person, to your ministry, to your preaching? So, we鈥檙e really talking about living the pattern of the life of Jesus in the world today. >>Kristen Padilla: I mentioned that you have written seven books and I know that you are working on a new project that is entitled, 鈥淭he Throne, The Lamb, and The Song: Worshipping With the Apocalypse of John.鈥 I鈥檇 love to know about this project and specifically what the Book of Revelation has to say about a theology of worship? >>Dr. Knowles: Well, if I can, I want to start somewhere slightly different to answer that question. An unusual place. The Tower of Babel. We think of it as they鈥檙e trying to storm Heaven. I don鈥檛 think so. I think what happens is this is a Mesopotamian [ziggurat 00:09:28] where what they鈥檝e done is they鈥檝e built a temple, or at least a step pyramid with a temple at the bottom and a temple at the top, because by so doing they have harnessed ingenuity, human ability to set the terms and times and conditions for worship. I think we replicate that heresy over and over again. We say, 鈥淚f you are to worship, you must worship using this language and not that. This music, not that. In my denominational pattern, not the other one.鈥 We set the table for the Lord and then say, 鈥淥kay, Lord, we鈥檙e ready for you now. You can come.鈥 Well, worship in the Book of Revelation is the very opposite of that. It鈥檚 worship impelled by the vision of God. Where worship begins ... This book expounds, I think, seven different worship scenes. And each one of them is because John has been invited into the presence of the living God, the glory of the Heavenly Father. And it鈥檚 the sight of God that impels worship. And I have to say, I鈥檓 personally impelled by that. That allows us to hang loose a little bit to all of the constraints by which we seek to set limits on how we should worship and where God is permitted to show up. I would like to start at the other end of things. To have this vision of God out of which we cannot but worship as God reveals himself we simply respond by declaring, 鈥淕lory and worship and honor and praise is Yours.鈥 >>Kristen Padilla: And when does that book come out? >>Dr. Knowles: Well, I have absolutely no idea. Because I haven鈥檛 yet found a publisher. So, yeah, we鈥檒l see. (laughs) >>Doug Sweeney: Well, publishers, take note. There鈥檚 a good book in the works here. Dr. Knowles, Kristen and I know that you鈥檙e an old friend of Dr. Mike Pasquarello, who is one of our faculty members here at Beeson. And a lot of our listeners know that one of the hats Mike Pasquarello wears here at Beeson is that he serves as the Director of our Preaching Institute. And a lot of our listeners will know, too, that one of the most popular lecture series offered through the Preaching Institute here at Beeson is called, 鈥淭ext to Sermon,鈥 where Dr. Pasquarello brings preachers of various sorts in every year to explain to students and pastors from the area who come and attend the lectures as well how it is they prepare to preach. How they move from study and prayer over text to scripture to the delivery of a sermon from the pulpit. Kristen and I thought it would be helpful to ask you the same question so our listeners can benefit from your experience as well. So, how do you go about preparing the sermons that you preach? >>Dr. Knowles: Well, thanks for that wonderful question. So, let me tell another story that rather somewhat earlier in my preaching career I got very discouraged with my preaching, because I found that I was telling my hearers, good evangelical Anglicans, believe it or not there are such things ... good evangelical Anglicans to be more faithful, to believe more, to be better followers of Jesus 鈥 and I found that all of my trying to exhort was only depressing them and depressing me. It wasn鈥檛 actually getting anywhere. And so of necessity I had to change the way I read the text. So, when I read a text I look for who God is and what God is doing. Not even what I should say first. And I do have to say a little story on myself, I hope it鈥檚 not totally neurotic, but I often start ... In the Anglican liturgical context, liturgical sacramental polity, the text of the week is given. And often I come to those texts, there will be several, without a clue what to speak on. And I have to pray. I have to say, 鈥淟ord, you鈥檝e got to show me something or I have nothing.鈥 But I begin to listen and pray and look in the text, not for what I ought to do as a result, nor can I reduce it to a single proposition, sorry, but can I catch a glimpse of the living powerful Word of God at work, not propositionally, but in the person of Jesus? What is he doing? How is Paul or Luke or the Book of Revelation, or Hebrews, what are they saying about who Jesus is and what he does? And I try to talk about that. So, then the one who carries the sermon is not my brilliant exposition. But the fact that Jesus is the one who does these things. And it invites the hearers then to look to him. To check it out ... it鈥檚 not true because I said it, it鈥檚 true because he does it. And that鈥檚 how I would move into a sermon. >>Kristen Padilla: We have a lot of pastors and preachers who listen to the podcast and I鈥檝e heard you talk about this week and I know you鈥檝e written on this topic. About how to preach and proclaim the gospel in a post Christendom era. And I wonder if you can just unpack that for a bit for our listeners? What would you say about preaching the gospel in the post Christendom era? >>Dr. Knowles: Yes, fabulous, because Canada as some of your listeners may know is a much more secular country than the US is, in almost any of its regions. So, post Christendom and postmodernism go together. And vastly oversimplifying, post Christendom is about the loss of power on the part of the Church. Post modernism is about lack of confidence in anybody making universal truth claims. It鈥檚 a vast oversimplification, but if we can just take those two things. I think that, it turns out I鈥檓 teaching a course right now on postmodern post Christendom preaching, so thankful for the question. With respect to power, I think that preaching today is non coercive. We can鈥檛 compel people to believe. We can鈥檛 say, 鈥淵ou must believe or the powers of Hell will overtake you.鈥 That鈥檚 just never going to fly. And we鈥檙e not in a position of power to insist on anything. So, instead, we yield and we bear witness to the thing that does not depend on us alone. So, my orientation with other people like Tom Long is to talk about preaching as testimony. Bearing witness to a thing that鈥檚 larger than ourselves and our responsibility is simply to bear witness to a greater thing than ourselves. And that verges over directly into postmodernism. The thing is not ... postmodernism is inherently suspicious of universal truth claims. So, we鈥檙e not, I鈥檓 not preaching that you ought to believe a universal because it鈥檚 somehow abstractly true, it becomes true in the embodied truth who is Jesus himself. Really, quick note here 鈥 truth in Hebrew scripture and in Hebrew is not only abstract propositional truth, but it is the truthfulness of the one who his himself true. So, in a biblical perspective, the truth of scripture is the fact that God is faithful to the things he says. So, we鈥檙e de-propositionalizing in a certain sense by drawing attention to the character and the reality and the agency of God. >>Doug Sweeney: That鈥檚 good. Kristen and I have a tradition in these podcast interviews. We ask all of our guests what the Lord is doing in their lives these days, what the Lord is teaching them these days. We鈥檝e learned already, after just a couple of days with you that you do walk with the Lord and you鈥檙e full of biblical wisdom. What鈥檚 God teaching you now? Anything that you could say to our listeners by way of edifying them in conclusion about what you鈥檙e learning from the Lord these days? >>Dr. Knowles: You know? I don鈥檛 think the lesson in principle is ever different, it鈥檚 always just deeper. He keeps calling me to trust him. I鈥檓 headed for retirement at some point. I have no idea what that will look like. But I know he calls me to trust him. And the thing that鈥檚 interesting is that I鈥檝e had to learn over the years it鈥檚 not trusting the things that he gives, 鈥淟ord, I asked you for this and I鈥檓 trusting you ...鈥 He鈥檚 actually not asking me to trust the gift, he鈥檚 asking me to trust the giver. Because often even when he doesn鈥檛 give us the thing we asked for he always give us himself. He is always himself the answer to any of our prayers. And that鈥檚 what he鈥檚 teaching me. And the lesson always goes deeper and I don鈥檛 think it will ever end until I see him face to face. >>Doug Sweeney: A wonderful word and a wonderful way to end this interview. You have been listening to the Reverend Dr. Michael Knowles. He is Professor of Preaching and the George F. Hurlburt Chair of Preaching at McMaster Divinity College in Hamilton, Ontario. He鈥檚 an ordained minister in the Anglican Church of Canada. He鈥檚 a prolific author and he鈥檚 becoming a dear friend of all of us here at Beeson Divinity School. So, thank you, Dr. Knowles, for being with us today and this week. Thank you, listeners, for tuning in again. We love you. We鈥檙e praying for you. And we say 鈥済oodbye鈥 for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You鈥檝e been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.